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	<title>Comments on: Owen on &#8220;Lively Justifying Faith&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/</link>
	<description>It&#039;s a Seventeenth Century World</description>
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		<title>By: Mark Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-197</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>PS,

You should get your hands on John von Rohr&#039;s excellent work: &quot;The Covenant of Grace in Puritan Thought&quot;. He shows that pretty much all of the Reformed-leaning Puritans spoke about the conditionality of the covenant.  

Of course, we know that we speak this way in the context of Reformed theology, which has other doctrines in view, namely, predestination, monergism, etc.  

It&#039;s a hard book to locate, but a good one to read, and very scholarly (i.e. lots of primary work).

Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS,</p>
<p>You should get your hands on John von Rohr&#8217;s excellent work: &#8220;The Covenant of Grace in Puritan Thought&#8221;. He shows that pretty much all of the Reformed-leaning Puritans spoke about the conditionality of the covenant.  </p>
<p>Of course, we know that we speak this way in the context of Reformed theology, which has other doctrines in view, namely, predestination, monergism, etc.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a hard book to locate, but a good one to read, and very scholarly (i.e. lots of primary work).</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-196</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-196</guid>
		<description>Nick,

Of course Turretin is correct. Isn&#039;t he always? ;)

Owen writes pretty much the same thing:

&quot;I do not say the covenant of grace is absolutely without conditions, if by conditions we intend the duties of obedience which God requireth of us in and by virtue of that covenant; but this I say, the principal promises thereof are not in the first place remunerative of our obedience in the covenant, but efficaciously assumptive of us in the covenant, and establishing or confirming the covenant (23:68-9).&quot;

Protestant scholasticism/orthodoxy embraced the use of distinctions (Maccovius was a genius at this) for this very purpose.  

Almost all of the Reformed orthodox used the language of conditionality to describe the covenant, beginning with Bullinger; but they also used the language of unconditionality. I think we should use both and be clear, like Owen and Turretin, what we mean by each term.

Best,
Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>Of course Turretin is correct. Isn&#8217;t he always? ;)</p>
<p>Owen writes pretty much the same thing:</p>
<p>&#8220;I do not say the covenant of grace is absolutely without conditions, if by conditions we intend the duties of obedience which God requireth of us in and by virtue of that covenant; but this I say, the principal promises thereof are not in the first place remunerative of our obedience in the covenant, but efficaciously assumptive of us in the covenant, and establishing or confirming the covenant (23:68-9).&#8221;</p>
<p>Protestant scholasticism/orthodoxy embraced the use of distinctions (Maccovius was a genius at this) for this very purpose.  </p>
<p>Almost all of the Reformed orthodox used the language of conditionality to describe the covenant, beginning with Bullinger; but they also used the language of unconditionality. I think we should use both and be clear, like Owen and Turretin, what we mean by each term.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Mark</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas T. Batzig</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas T. Batzig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:03:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-194</guid>
		<description>Mark, 

    What you think of Mark Beach&#039;s statement about Turretin&#039;s understanding of the issue of conditionality when he (i.e Beach) writes:

Turretin’s point is simple: If the word condition is used in the broad sense, to include all of the above (i.e. deliverance from guilt and corruption–imputation and impartation)–which also means it is used in an improper sense–then repentance and all the other duties in the Covenant of Grace may be called conditions. However, if one is to use words properly, and to conceive of conditionality in the strict and proper sense, not merely in the sense of what must antecedently be present for the subsequent to come about , but especially in the sense of some causality being present–even if it is only an instrumental causality–then repentance and evangelical obedience are altogether and wholly excluded from functioning as conditions in the Covenant of Grace, or being such called. (p. 188 Christ and the Covenant: Francis Turretin’s Federal Theology as a Defense of the Covenant of Grace (Vandenhoek &amp; Ruprecht, 2007))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, </p>
<p>    What you think of Mark Beach&#8217;s statement about Turretin&#8217;s understanding of the issue of conditionality when he (i.e Beach) writes:</p>
<p>Turretin’s point is simple: If the word condition is used in the broad sense, to include all of the above (i.e. deliverance from guilt and corruption–imputation and impartation)–which also means it is used in an improper sense–then repentance and all the other duties in the Covenant of Grace may be called conditions. However, if one is to use words properly, and to conceive of conditionality in the strict and proper sense, not merely in the sense of what must antecedently be present for the subsequent to come about , but especially in the sense of some causality being present–even if it is only an instrumental causality–then repentance and evangelical obedience are altogether and wholly excluded from functioning as conditions in the Covenant of Grace, or being such called. (p. 188 Christ and the Covenant: Francis Turretin’s Federal Theology as a Defense of the Covenant of Grace (Vandenhoek &amp; Ruprecht, 2007))</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-170</guid>
		<description>Some want to maintain the gracious nature of the covenant of grace and therefore do no like the language of conditionality. Some like to make salvation co-extensive with justification and so obedience can&#039;t possibly be a condition, then.  The Puritans, for example, worked out the law-gospel hermeneutic differently than the Lutherans. So, a more Lutheran-leaning theologian might not like Owen&#039;s emphases, which is ironic since Owen has his own Lutheranism in his view of Sinai (and Owen admits he falls in the Lutheran camp on that question).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some want to maintain the gracious nature of the covenant of grace and therefore do no like the language of conditionality. Some like to make salvation co-extensive with justification and so obedience can&#8217;t possibly be a condition, then.  The Puritans, for example, worked out the law-gospel hermeneutic differently than the Lutherans. So, a more Lutheran-leaning theologian might not like Owen&#8217;s emphases, which is ironic since Owen has his own Lutheranism in his view of Sinai (and Owen admits he falls in the Lutheran camp on that question).</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy M</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-168</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mark, I was just curious if there was a line of reasoning they had or some book where this view was put forth. 

Enjoying the blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mark, I was just curious if there was a line of reasoning they had or some book where this view was put forth. </p>
<p>Enjoying the blog!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-161</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Timothy, there are a lot of Reformed folk who baulk when I say the New Covenant carries the conditions of faith and new obedience. Then I use Owen and they become increasingly silent ... There&#039;s no one person in particular I am thinking of, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, there are a lot of Reformed folk who baulk when I say the New Covenant carries the conditions of faith and new obedience. Then I use Owen and they become increasingly silent &#8230; There&#8217;s no one person in particular I am thinking of, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy M</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-159</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-159</guid>
		<description>Just out of curiosity, did you have anyone in particular in mind who would not agree to conditions in the New Covenant as being faith and obedience as Owen describes? 

Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just out of curiosity, did you have anyone in particular in mind who would not agree to conditions in the New Covenant as being faith and obedience as Owen describes? </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Danny Hyde</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-156</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny Hyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-156</guid>
		<description>Thank for this, Mark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank for this, Mark.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-152</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-152</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Benji. The quote from the Second Helvetic was a late addition!!  Once this robust definition of faith is upheld, the danger of antinomianism really should be averted since this faith is a busy thing, doing all sorts of good works. How can such faith not be so busy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Benji. The quote from the Second Helvetic was a late addition!!  Once this robust definition of faith is upheld, the danger of antinomianism really should be averted since this faith is a busy thing, doing all sorts of good works. How can such faith not be so busy?</p>
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		<title>By: Benji</title>
		<link>http://www.meetthepuritans.com/2009/09/18/owen-on-lively-justifying-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>Benji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.meetthepuritans.com/?p=549#comment-151</guid>
		<description>Nice reference to the Second Helvetic :).  I am not sure how comfortable many of us would be with that statement, but it is clearly his concern (against Rome) to show that only true faith justifies, and true faith is a &quot;living  and quickening faith.&quot;  As Bullinger here and elsewhere points out, faith does not recieve its power to justify from the works it produces--that happens only as it recieves Christ and his righteousness.  But as he says elsewhere in the 2nd Hel., &quot;Works necessarily proceed from faith.&quot;

I also appreciate your last comment about &quot;conditions&quot; in the new covenant.  What you demonstrated from Owen seems to be fairly standard 17th century fare.  LC #32 seems to point to this:

Q32: How is the grace of God manifested in the second covenant?

A32: The grace of God is manifested in the second covenant, in that he freely provideth and offereth to sinners a Mediator, and life and salvation by him; and requiring faith as the CONDITION to interest them in him, promiseth and giveth his Holy Spirit to all his elect, to work in them that faith, with all other saving graces; and to enable them unto all holy obedience, as the evidence of the truth of their faith and thankfulness to God, and as the way which he hath appointed them to salvation.

Faith is the condition in the sense that it is &quot;required&quot; of those in the covenant, but it is not an &quot;antecedent&quot; condition that causes or merits the grace offered in the covenant.  

John Ball, in his &quot;Treatise on the Covenant of Grace,&quot; speaks similarly:

&quot;For it [faith] doth not justify as it produceth good workes, but as it receiveth Chrift, though it cannot receive Christ, unless it brings forth good workes. A disposition to good workes is neccesary to justification, being the qualification of an active and lively faith. Good works of all sorts are necessary to our continuance in the ftate of justification, and so to our finall absolution, if God give opportunity: but they are not the cause of, but only a precedent qualification or condition to finall forgiveness and eternall bliss.&quot; (20)

Interestingly both Ball and Owen (and the Second Helvetic) go back to the same starting point when dealing with the necessity of good works flowing from a true and lively faith: Christ himself.  Since those united to him must necessarily be alive, true faith must also be living.  

Well, before I get myself in trouble, I&#039;d better stop.  But thanks for the thoughtful post.  It is truly a delight to be reminded that I have Christ&#039;s righteousness which is alone sufficient for my justification, but also his life-giving power at work in my dead soul to make me alive to serve him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice reference to the Second Helvetic :).  I am not sure how comfortable many of us would be with that statement, but it is clearly his concern (against Rome) to show that only true faith justifies, and true faith is a &#8220;living  and quickening faith.&#8221;  As Bullinger here and elsewhere points out, faith does not recieve its power to justify from the works it produces&#8211;that happens only as it recieves Christ and his righteousness.  But as he says elsewhere in the 2nd Hel., &#8220;Works necessarily proceed from faith.&#8221;</p>
<p>I also appreciate your last comment about &#8220;conditions&#8221; in the new covenant.  What you demonstrated from Owen seems to be fairly standard 17th century fare.  LC #32 seems to point to this:</p>
<p>Q32: How is the grace of God manifested in the second covenant?</p>
<p>A32: The grace of God is manifested in the second covenant, in that he freely provideth and offereth to sinners a Mediator, and life and salvation by him; and requiring faith as the CONDITION to interest them in him, promiseth and giveth his Holy Spirit to all his elect, to work in them that faith, with all other saving graces; and to enable them unto all holy obedience, as the evidence of the truth of their faith and thankfulness to God, and as the way which he hath appointed them to salvation.</p>
<p>Faith is the condition in the sense that it is &#8220;required&#8221; of those in the covenant, but it is not an &#8220;antecedent&#8221; condition that causes or merits the grace offered in the covenant.  </p>
<p>John Ball, in his &#8220;Treatise on the Covenant of Grace,&#8221; speaks similarly:</p>
<p>&#8220;For it [faith] doth not justify as it produceth good workes, but as it receiveth Chrift, though it cannot receive Christ, unless it brings forth good workes. A disposition to good workes is neccesary to justification, being the qualification of an active and lively faith. Good works of all sorts are necessary to our continuance in the ftate of justification, and so to our finall absolution, if God give opportunity: but they are not the cause of, but only a precedent qualification or condition to finall forgiveness and eternall bliss.&#8221; (20)</p>
<p>Interestingly both Ball and Owen (and the Second Helvetic) go back to the same starting point when dealing with the necessity of good works flowing from a true and lively faith: Christ himself.  Since those united to him must necessarily be alive, true faith must also be living.  </p>
<p>Well, before I get myself in trouble, I&#8217;d better stop.  But thanks for the thoughtful post.  It is truly a delight to be reminded that I have Christ&#8217;s righteousness which is alone sufficient for my justification, but also his life-giving power at work in my dead soul to make me alive to serve him.</p>
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